BBNovaRacing.com

Hello all...

This is my first post here. i enjoy reading these boards very much and visit every day. I thought I would ask a couple of questions of the BBNovaRacing.com visitors to check the pulse of the consumer. I am going to post these questions on several boards so forgive me if you see this more than once.

1. What is a fair price for the labor to plumb a nozzle system?
2. In your opinion, do the manufacturers support thier products technically enough?
3. What do you think are fair prices for jets, nitrous parts, plate and nozzle systems?
4. What is the one thing that you wanted from the nitrous system/parts that you recently bought but did not get? (IE technical information, quality, etc)

That is enough for now. As always, I appriciate all of your time to answer these questions.

Happy New Year,
Butch Schrier

Hey Butch nice of ya to post....

I would think somewhere in the $300 range would be fair to plumb a single system from someone with experience...

As far as the Manuf., I think some do a good job and others do an ok job...

As far as prices for the parts...hmmm.. I pay what it costs and don't bitch too much so I guess can say they are within reason...

I haven't gotten anything I didn't ask for.. they have been there for me for everything I have wanted....

Not too informative Butch, but hope it helps...

I agree w/ 300 to plumb; I think that most tech (NOT all) is pathetic. Brutal. Steve Johnson is very good, but very busy, and I think when he was with NOS he may have been cautious with advice so as not to hurt people's stuff... (Carbs/air bleeds not right, too tight to make a call-) However, everyone else other than Wady or a few others at NOS was brain dead. Now, its beyond bad. Edelbrock will benefit from Steve, but track support really isn't there to tune your stuff for you- it's to trouble shoot. Jon Phillips is the hardest worker in the biz. He RUNS non stop. His tech is very good, very honest, insightful. NX will flow stuff for you if you ask (different psi'jet spreads) and give you an opinion. That's awesome. Their tolerances on jets is good but.... mass production... I've had issues with different orifice sizes in their stuff and they were unable to provide assistance to why we had a logjam/phase change right where we wanted to go- beyond it was okay. They are very good, but not perfect.

I think Speedtech is interesting, they have the pedigree, but I am happy enough with NX to stay as long as they will have me. I've never tuned the Speedtech stuff, but all the Jon Stewart desciples kits seem to be more linear and easier to jump up in pill without a surprise than NOS/BG. The 'as delivered' NOS stuff reeks. Its variances are so great- but they have great solenoids and good nozzles. If you step up and pay a premium you get decent jets. That isn't fair.

I would happily pay 'just under' 2 grand for a plumbed PROPER n20 system, so curent prices are fine. (Just under 'cause there is a mental block above 1850 or so...)

I want someone to tell me what order and what sizes to use for orifices after I give them my lengths of line, power needs etc. I couldn't care less what size the jet is, but I want a system that once plumbed and installed per instructions can be calculated via a tech line to dispense X amount per run.

You can't get that.

We're still dealing with hardware, lines, ferrels, other shit that is standard industrial crap that causes havoc when you jump up in pill dia- everything behind it goes to gas and you lose the flow. Been there, burnt the pistons, observed the reduced bottle discharge.

I dunno if this makes sense- a rant, didn't even proof read.

PB

One more thing, Prock is very good, so are some other 'specialists'... I assumed you meant manufacturers.

That, and what I meant by 'someone to tell me what orifices to use' I am sure that 8 50 jets will take different distribution block id's, fitting id's, line id's, bulkhead id's, than 8 28's but no one has quantified that and sold it correctly in a mass produced item. It's a great cottage industry for the specialists, but it's 2004. If I need to change feed lines and distribution blocks as part of a jet change from 34 to 42 then fine, just quatify it before hand and TELL ME.

It shouldn't be so damned hard to get an honest 450+ hp out of one fogger.

Well said Patrick.....

Thank you Kevin for the warm welcome. I was in Stanton and wanted to meet you but you always looked so busy. I will see you at the NSCA races this year and promise to introduce myself.

As usual Patrick, very well put and thank you both for the input. At this time of year I am always seeking to insure that the products and systems that I am working on benifit from the end users like your board readers.

I have often wondered how it would be if we designed systems/components without concern for manufacturing costs and sku consideration. Of course, that is a discussions for another day and another time. But certainly interesting...

You both are very aware of the pressure in giving the "high risk" tune up advice that so many manufacturers shy away from and for very good reason. So many can and will take a high risk tune up and totally destroy everything connected to his or her throttle pedal and without any concern to what they lack in combination or knowledge throw the manufacturer under the bus. I dont see that changing in the very near future. A more systemic approch to a nitrous "kit" would certainly help.... but at what cost.

I still have not been able to come up with the final solution of which massmatics was started to provide and that was or is a universal formula for a tune up (read that as a factor, formula, etc.). In fact the more I listen to guys like Patrick, it is becomeing more clear to me that the job of a "massmatics" will change into some other way of approching the same problem.

As someone who has been and still is a designer and manufacturer of performance components, I hope that someday some of my nitrous stuff can and will be a platform to be what it is Patrick so accuratly described. However, all indications point to the 400 plus range to be an "unique" place to be with a dynamic associated with the "tune up" that can only be exicuted with a higher degree of knowledge on the part of the racer and a greater interface with the complete system on the part of the tuner/supplier of thier nitrous components.

I know Steve and he is very passionate and does work hard. Jon in my opinion is a wonderful person and I watch him when ever I am at any race that he and I are at and the man is non stop that is for sure. Both are people that I would trust the representation of my company to in a heart beat.

Sorry about the rambling... but tis the season. Thanks for the input and I look forward to chatting more about this.
Butch Schrier

Butch...nice to see you around again. Miss our chats from back in the HPC Chatroom days!!! Getting a little nostalgic. LOL

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-Eric Cary-
Sledgehammer Motorsports
Extreme Street - 1971 Dodge Dart

Butch, thank you for starting this thread. I too am in the market for a new fogger system for my BBc. One thing I'm doing differently is making my own system from various manufacturers. But "most" will be NX. I met John Stewart from there years ago before his death, and his insight to this stuff seamed endless. Now Jon Phillips runs the company and from what I see, I will agree with Pat, is vary hard working plus comes around to help out us "brain dead racers". NX will make up the majority of my system but I'm looking at BTR for my solinoids. Nozzels are the concern for me. JUST WHO ARE THE BEST FLAT OUT NOZZLES PERIOD. Any info on this question would be greatly appriciated. Also with NX being a sponsor, if everything is close, ie. performance and cost, just go with them NX. Hope this helps and remember this is just my 2 cents. John

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Well, Well who's got the best OUTRIGHT nozzle

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Hello all, and Happy New Year....

I wanted to take this opportunity to thank everyone who replied and visited this post. All of your input has been filed and will becme a part of what will drive my 2005 efforts within the nitrous business.

John, I would like to offer a couple of comments on what and who makes the best nozzle in the industry. I think the best nozzle is the one that has the best flow rate capability for your particular application. The internal architecture of most of the nozzles on the market today are fairly similar and there seems to be what you could say is a 2 style of nozzle industry right now. One being the point of confluence style or flow intersection type in that the nozzle brings the nitrous and the fuel together away from the exit orifice of the nozzle and the other style brings the nitrous and fuel together at the nozzle itself. Both have thier dissadvantages and advantages.

My nozzle research is a little old as I stopped working on some new nozzle technology a while back. I am concentrating on plates for the immediate future. But, here is my opinion... and we all know what an opinion is worth.

I like the style of nozzle that offers seperate exits from the nozzle for both the fuel and nitrous. This flys in the face of my original brand X nozzle that was what I called the shrouded exit nozzle. I like this style of nozzle (separate exits) because (again, in my opinion and without what I would consider to be up to the minute research) with a dedicated exit, each of the fliuds "feel" less of what the other is doing until it is under the influence of the port flow and not the flow of each of the nitrous or fuel. Does that make sense? in other words, I am not a big fan of tring to accelerate the fuel exiting a nozzle because of nitrous flow. In other words, shearing the fuel away from the nozzle (at least how everyone does it now) is not in my opinion not the "hot lick".

Remember, I am not trying to be politically correct here when I say, pick the nozzle you will use because of the company or brand of components you are planning to run not because of the claims associated about the nozzle itself. This way, the technical support you need to optimise your combination will be there and not leaving you in the dark over a combination question. Obviously, your tuner and or nirtous system supplier will have a lot to say about a choice of nozzle based on his or her point of view and practical experiance.

While I am not currently offering any components for sale into the marketplace, I always enjoy talking about anything that you might think I can help with. Please contact me at parts2race@msn.com or at 562-863-7624. I hope this helps a little.

Thanks again,
Butch Schrier

Butch, I never knew you were in the Biz. Cool. I will be sending an email just to say hi and pick-your-brain. I'm still a ways away from purchasing the stuff, but like to do my homework on things I need. I'm going thru everything I can to do research and have what I feel will be the best for me. I like the NX rail style systems. I like the BTR 'noids with the rails. Looking at NX main line and bottles. Not sure what of the NX nozzles I prefer yet. The speedtech, Edelbrock, Cold Fusion are the new guys on the block, and therefore should be better, but I have yet to see a sidnificant gain. Also, I only "heard" but have not been able to find out much about the Fulton nozzles. Was told here, north of the border, that there was a significant gain over the 2 NOS nozzles that were on the motor. Now as I'm looking at running NPS in '05 with an "unlimited" jet in a single stage fogger, would like to push the system to the max. Like Patrick said, 450 hp should not be this hard. And I would like to be north of that figure also. Some of these manufacturers are stating 600 hp systems. Would REALLY like to push the envolope with the nitrous this summer. Thanks to all, John

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Everyone bring their ear plugs.....

I'm "DUCK HUNTIN'"

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OK than some more questions. Patrick stated about changes of lines and distribution block when going from a 34 to 42 pill? Would that really make a differance if your using a 156 orfice solinoid and 1/8" hard line and blocks with a 1/8" hole? My theory would be that for a 42 pill in a fogger, you should run a min. if .210 everywhere before the pill? Therefore the pill would be the limiting factor? The way I see it for the 42 pill there's a total area of .168 (.042 X 4=.168) therefore a .156 solinoid should never feed it? Is this theory correct? The BTR 'noids are .25 so you should be able to run up to a .05 per side, if your running 2 solinoids? Now everything between the solinoid and the pill should also be .250"? Now I know Bill runs only one NOS solinoid for his system on the Olds, and claims that the solinoid will support a 750hp shot? How does all this theory come into play in real world terms? For my system I'm biulding my own "rails" like in the NX systems and would like to run the SX 2 nozzle but for one stage at times and not sure if it will effect the performance running the one stage at the NSCA/CFSC as we can run 2 stages in S/S in the OSCA. Now come on guys who have run these type of systems, OPEN UP and give us your views. Butch and Patrick can also inlighten myself and others on these theories/questions. NOW THIS IS NOT KNOCKING ANYBODIES SYSTEMS OR WORK, JUST MY 2 CENTS, AND IN CANADIAN FUNDS AT THAT, WHICH = 3 QUARTERS OF A CENT US. CENTS. Now lets hear you views and theories. This is for discussion/insight and will not be held against anyone. Thanks John

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Hey John and hello all…

Good questions all and with some good math as well. As you and I have talked in the past I really avoid talking exact jetting on the net just to keep my butt out of a sling, but here is my point of view on your premise. Please understand that all that I offer to anyone who asks questions like these is the result of my personal research and that may fly in the face of others in the nitrous design community. I am in no way saying that the systems on the market today or my fellow designers are anything but very good and very competent.

First and foremost for me in talking about horsepower capabilities of any given system is the amount of pounds per hour a solenoid can flow. The reason? For me, and this may not be for everyone, I need to know what the system will flow in segments as well as in a system. AND… everything before the solenoid is just an extension of the bottle (take that one to the bank). The feed line and all that is attached to the bottle is one and the same area. So, before the solenoid is an extension of the bottle therefore, all that happens up to the “gate” to your intake manifold (read that solenoid) is controlled by the total area of the bottle and all that leads from it. In fact, I will go out on a limb here and say that the real limiting factor when it comes to the “total horsepower” (remember that pair of words because it will come up later) amount you can make is in the storage, regulation and total capacity of the nitrous itself.

Ok, now that I have said that, one of the things that I (and maybe not everyone else in this business) quantify my solenoids by is total pounds per hour of nitrous flow. So, a .110” solenoid might flow 1400 lbs. per hour, and a .116” might flow 1600 lbs. per hour, a .125’ might flow 1800 lbs. per hour. In this way you have what is in effect a ceiling of the maximum horsepower that you can make (less a factor for efficiency loss) with any given system. Please forgive me as I have not looked at nor experimented with the .250' solenoid that you talk about (but I would love to).

Ok, now that all fo that has been said, (hang in there, this is a building process…hahaha) anything you do along the way to increase the flow capability of the delivery portion of your nozzle system (that would be the sum of the parts attached to your solenoid) will only increase the total horsepower capability of your nitrous system. I think many people forget that the jet is just a calibration orifice (read that restriction) that we use to make a final correction to meter what we present to the engine in both fuel and nitrous when in fact the areas (that you have so nicely calculated for us here as an example) come into play. I will admit that there is a symbiosis between the area of all that is attached to the solenoid and the orifice within the solenoid. But the way I look at it, it is all about mass flow first, and not as much as a consideration of the area of the jet itself.

For my nozzle systems, I use a hard line that has an internal size of .140” approximately. It is a stainless and annealed seamless tube and I have a very good balance of flow capability meaning the efficiency loss in mass flow is pretty minimal which is not to say that it could not get better with some research and alternate material choices. The idea of area balance to solenoid orifice/horsepower ceiling is a good one and does show promise in the tune up remaining viable area. In fact, I liken it to changing the piston “out” amount on fuel cars as a tuning aid. I will say that as you move up in your horsepower ceiling the narrower the tuneability window of any given nitrous system configuration is.

So, to answer your question specifically about your jet/area math question. A short answer would be yes. For anyone who is contemplating a nitrous system, you must first know a ceiling of horsepower you want to make with the system. Pick 300 hp or 1000 hp (and 800 psi. nitrous or 1100 psi. nitrous, 5 psi. fuel or 50 psi. fuel). You know what the nitrous usage per horsepower is in pounds per hour, so with your horsepower figure, calculate what you need in nitrous (mass) and then configure your system. The bottles (storage system) must hold enough sweet nitrous to support the mass consumption, the bottle valve orifice must be able to supply a feed line and flow path to support the mass of the nitrous required, the solenoids must process enough mass, and then once all of that has been successfully done, you can use the jet to restrict from the total mass required to give you the settings you require. Remember, the system must have the capability to flow a much higher amount of nitrous that you plan to use so that your jet map has meaning. In other words, your jet map, must relate to the band of orifices you plan to use in your tuning window. The reasons for this include pressure drop and the fact that nitrous always flows in 2 phases to mention just 2 of the contributing factors. Some food for thought, what would a .110" nitrous solenoid, connected to .110" feed lines, connected to a .110" jet, connected to nozzles with an internal passageway of .110" do? Would that type of system perform better? Hmmmm.....

I will stop for now, and I hope this helps a bit. As always, I look forward to your comments.

Butch Schrier